sT

[email protected] (The Bronze)

03/04/2005 6:53 AM

End Of The World was great!

I'm sometimes amazed at the joylessness of the conversation round here
- surely Rose and End Of The World must have energized fandom? Someone
started a thread called 'Just seen End of the World yesterday and it
still only has 13 additional posts! Where is everyone??

Anyway, less of the meta-post comments...

This was a celebratory party of an episode, with hordes of great
looking monsters, a villain with a wicked sense of humour, several
beautifully written scenes adding to the growing depth of Rose and The
Doctor's relationship, and some moments that were so Doctor Whoish I
laughed out loud.

i.e.:
The first appearance of an inspection duct!
The Doctor frantically rewiring some bit of technology against a
countdown which ends at 01!

How wonderful was the bit where The Doctor composes himself into a
sort of trance state to walk through the whirling blades unscathed!

Rose's conversation with the plumber was fantastically written from
start to finish, and the bit where it dawns on her that she's
committed the equivalent folly of leaping into a car with a stranger
was brilliantly acted by Billie, who is second only to Romana 2 in the
companionability ratings, I'd say.

And Rose's dialogue about how sad it was that the Earth had died
without anyone watching was genuinely melancholic and made you think
about the transience of all human experience.

This series is the best Doctor Who we've had since Philip Hinchcliffe
and Robert Holmes were at the wheel - it's better than the very patchy
Douglas Adams period on the evidence this far (CITY OF DEATH is fine
but the other stories at that time don't maintain the standard). This
is Doctor Who reinvigorated and reinvented for a new century and a new
audience and I hope it runs and runs. I can scarcely contain myself
thinking that we have at least another twenty five episodes to go!

I watched it with a tolerant friend who is not an out and out Who fan
and he said it was totally involving, genuinely exciting and very
funny. I was on the phone to a couple of other friends who, again,
like DW but aren't out-and-out nutjobs like us - they both expressed
surprise at how entertaining and compelling it all was, and said they
were looking forward to seeing more, in a way that they hadn't since
they were kids.

RTD - Thankyou!!!!!!!!


This topic has 20 replies

Nn

"Nndroid"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 7:44 AM

I agree, this IS the best Doctor Who since the Baker glory days and
finally I'm proud to be a WhoSpod again. Here are two personal
experiences that make me think the new show has got it right.

* My 4 and 6 year old nieces had never even heard of Doctor Who but
were totally terrified by, and rapt in front of, 'Rose". They are now
officially obsessed, spent the following week making cardboard Tardises
and drawing scenes from the NEXT episode (just from the trailer!), and
asking me to tell them Who stories that had happened before they were
born. God knows what they are going to be like when they see a Dalek.

* My 37 year old missus, who has no interest in the show, was crying
after the credits of 'End Of The World'.

If Russell Davies and the team can hook such a broad spread of people
then we'll have a healthy show for years to come. The diehards can carp
but I can't imagine a better way to bring back the Doctor.

Ef

"Emmemm"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 8:00 AM

Nndroid wrote:

> * My 4 and 6 year old nieces had never even heard of Doctor Who but
> were totally terrified by, and rapt in front of, 'Rose".

And they know what prositute, concubine, 'tainted love' and
transexualism are do they? (See Martin's response that 6 year old's
should do)?
--
Frank
"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much
fraternizing with the enemy." - Henry Kissinger

dT

[email protected] (The Doctor)

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 9:00 AM

In article <[email protected]>,
The Bronze <[email protected]> wrote:

Thanks for the thread Bronze. Very much appreciated.
--
Member - Liberal International
This is [email protected] Ici [email protected]
God Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
UK as 5 May 2005 approaches, vote LDem!!

sT

[email protected] (The Bronze)

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 6:59 PM

"Emmemm" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Nndroid wrote:
>
> > * My 4 and 6 year old nieces had never even heard of Doctor Who but
> > were totally terrified by, and rapt in front of, 'Rose".
>
> And they know what prositute, concubine, 'tainted love' and
> transexualism are do they? (See Martin's response that 6 year old's
> should do)?

It's become a commonplace tactic - in movies from Disney, Pixar etc -
to sprinkle a few risqué remarks throughout children's films, to keep
the adults amused.

I think this is a fuss over nothing - telling a child a prostitute is
'a woman who sleeps with/accompanies/pretends to like (delete as
preferred) men for money', adding 'it's not the right sort of job for
a nice girl like Rose' ought to cover the first two. As for 'tainted
love' - are you kidding? Are you seriously suggesting a child is going
to ask, "What's tainted love, mummy?' when that song plays? Better ban
it from the radio then! What a bizarre objection!

As for 'transexualism' - are you serious? You make this lightweight
quip from Cassandra sound like RTD has been flaunting she-male porno
during prime-time!

Is it so terrible anyway for a kid to imagine that in the future we
might be able to change backwards and forwards between male and
female? It is, in fact, exactly the sort of notion that would quite
easily occur to a child spontaneously, regardless of RTD and what you
seem to regard as his sleazy perverted agenda!


The Bronze

AL

Andy Leighton

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 7:13 AM

I've noticed we (including myself) have become a little lax about
spoiler space.

Apologies to the non-UK folk - I am adding spoiler space into this
post as I am replying.


On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 06:53:09 -0500,
The Bronze <[email protected]> wrote:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

> How wonderful was the bit where The Doctor composes himself into a
> sort of trance state to walk through the whirling blades unscathed!

Hated that bit as I have already said.

> Rose's conversation with the plumber was fantastically written from
> start to finish,

Yep - liked that bit.

After two stories my impressions are -
some great dialogue in places.
too much pointless filler.
pacing problems (which may be due to the format).
plots that almost resolve themselves.
too much emphasis on unoriginal imagery.

Don't get me wrong it is still enjoyable and still DW but that shouldn't stop
us trying to offer constructive criticism where we feel it falls short. At
the moment it just feels a tad uneven.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

Nn

"Nndroid"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 3:09 PM

They assumed they were strange science fiction concepts from the future
and ignored them. What's the problem? Aren't these the "adult bits"
that go over kids' heads and make modern family shows like The Simpsons
and New Who work?

I can't see the problem.

sT

[email protected] (The Bronze)

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

04/04/2005 1:39 PM

> * My 4 and 6 year old nieces had never even heard of Doctor Who but
> were totally terrified by, and rapt in front of, 'Rose". They are now
> officially obsessed, spent the following week making cardboard Tardises
> and drawing scenes from the NEXT episode (just from the trailer!), and
> asking me to tell them Who stories that had happened before they were
> born. God knows what they are going to be like when they see a Dalek.

Fantastic! A sure sign of success is when kids start drawing something
they've seen. I used to fill drawing pad after drawing pad with
renderings of Davros, Cybermen heads (just the heads for some reason),
Ice Warriors, and - after the Weetabix figures came out - Quarks,
hundreds of Quarks... it came as quite a shock to me when I realised
everyone else thought the Quarks were a crap design!


The Bronze

MH

Martin Hoscik

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 7:27 PM

Emmemm wrote:

> OK, so the best explanation to eventually profer is that Cassandra is an
> evil person who has mutilated her body numerous times leading her to be
> a sick flap of skin after 500 operations. This is clearly what RTD
> intends to imply about transexualism. No?

No, it's just what you choose to see in someone else's post as you work
your way down a list of improbable reasons to bash the new show.

--
Martin Hoscik
www.unitnews.co.uk - Articles, News & Forums

NS

"Neil Sullivan"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

05/04/2005 10:34 AM

"Igenlode" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> [repost]
> On 3 Apr 2005 The Bronze wrote:
>
> Spoiler space for Episode 2
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>
> I'm not quite sure what purpose was served, from a script point of view,
> by having Rose locked away in a room while all the crisis was going on.
> It's not as if she was going to be in any more danger there than when
> the space station blew up

There wasn't just the danger of the whole platform being destroyed, but also
the threat of the individual windows giving way to the heat before then. So
having different characters in different rooms kept the possibility of
individual characters dying. As it happens, Moxxy died just by being in the
wrong spot in that room.

>, and the 'sun filter' business (that had me
> puzzled; surely a filter is not a threat but a protection?)

Which is why lowering it would be fatal!

> Still had to run from the room in an undignified manner (trailing the
> blanket I'd been wrapped up in!) to escape the spoilers for the next
> episode, though :-(

I really don't think there are any spoilers in there. Maybe you should go
back and watch it a week later and decide whether it would have spoilt
anything. I mean the week before all they showed was that episode 2 was
going to be set at the time the sun is expanding and what a few of the
aliens look like.

In

Igenlode

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

06/04/2005 3:21 AM

On 5 Apr 2005 Neil Sullivan wrote:

> "Igenlode" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]

[snip]

> > Still had to run from the room in an undignified manner (trailing the
> > blanket I'd been wrapped up in!) to escape the spoilers for the next
> > episode, though :-(
>
> I really don't think there are any spoilers in there. Maybe you should go
> back and watch it a week later

A bit difficult, as -- very old-fashioned, I suppose, in hindsight, but
I've only ever videoed programmes for 'time-shifting' purposes,
recording over and over the same tape -- I haven't saved any of the
episodes ;-) I normally watch things 'live', even in the small hours;
recorded off-the-air picture quality tends to be dreadful.

> and decide whether it would have spoilt anything. I mean the week before all
> they showed was that episode 2 was going to be set at the time the sun is
> expanding and what a few of the aliens look like.
>
Thus spoiling the visual humour :-(

Oh, I'm just paranoid about spoilers, that's all; I'd much rather not
have known that "a major character was going to die" before reading
"Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix", despite the fact that
Rowling herself saw fit to publicise it all over the media beforehand,
and when I'm watching films at the National Film Theatre I've learnt
the hard way not to read the accompanying film notes while waiting for
the screening to start, whether they are marked as containing spoilers
or not. Even if they don't tell you the *end* of the film they can't
help but mention specific scenes, characters or even the composition of
individual shots: for "The Flesh and the Devil", for example, the notes
praised the ingenuity of various special effects used to subconsciously
influence the audience. No plot clues at all -- but whatever
'subconscious' effect those devices might have had if I'd seen them
unprepared, they just stood out as rather odd (and not particularly
effective) when the film subsequently came on :-(

I'd rather experience events just as Rose does, without the benefit of
forewarning as to what they are going to see or the punchlines to any of
the jokes. I'm even avoiding reading the episode *titles* beforehand :-)
--
Igenlode <[email protected]> Lurker Extraordinaire

loose (archaic): set free, unleash - lose: mislay, be defeated

In

Igenlode

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

04/04/2005 10:03 PM

[repost]
On 3 Apr 2005 The Bronze wrote:

Spoiler space for Episode 2
29
28
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> How wonderful was the bit where The Doctor composes himself into a
> sort of trance state to walk through the whirling blades unscathed!

Actually, my reaction at that point was that if only he hadn't wasted
so much time at the start hesitating and looking back so see if Jabe was
still all right, she might have been still alive -- not to mention that
he wouldn't then have had the problem :-(

>
> Rose's conversation with the plumber was fantastically written from
> start to finish,

Yes, I liked that bit :-)


> and the bit where it dawns on her that she's committed the equivalent
> folly of leaping into a car with a stranger was brilliantly acted by
> Billie, who is second only to Romana 2 in the companionability ratings,
> I'd say.

I'm still not very sure I like this Doctor (either as a person or as a
piece of acting) but I love Rose already. Frankly, I'd be much more cut
up about news that Rose was going to leave the series at the end of the
season than that Ecclestone was: the lines being given the character are
all right, but I suspect (from when I've seen them quoted on the
newsgroup) looked better on paper than he's managing to bring them
across on screen.


I gather this Doctor doesn't have an infinite selection of odds and
ends in his pockets, if he's reduced to bestowing the gift of his
breath? I was distinctly expecting him to offer a jelly-baby!


I'm not quite sure what purpose was served, from a script point of view,
by having Rose locked away in a room while all the crisis was going on.
It's not as if she was going to be in any more danger there than when
the space station blew up, and the 'sun filter' business (that had me
puzzled; surely a filter is not a threat but a protection?) was all
over within a few minutes. I was subconsciously expecting her to
discover something or perform some vital action while she was in there,
but she was just kept shut out of the way and then released when the
Doctor had finished. I suppose they needed some logic as to why Rose
couldn't be available to hold down the switch...


If Rose looks after that cutting, will it eventually grow into a
sentient tree? Or was Jabe's grandfather just much less 'biologically
advanced' than those of her own generation?

>
> And Rose's dialogue about how sad it was that the Earth had died
> without anyone watching was genuinely melancholic and made you think
> about the transience of all human experience.

Actually, I was rather expecting the Doctor to offer to take her back a
few minutes in time to witness it all over again - he looked as if he
was going to, but then he didn't!


>
> This series is the best Doctor Who we've had since Philip Hinchcliffe
> and Robert Holmes were at the wheel - it's better than the very patchy
> Douglas Adams period on the evidence this far (CITY OF DEATH is fine
> but the other stories at that time don't maintain the standard).

There were some moments in this story that distinctly reminded me of
Douglas Adams at the time... but I can't remember what they were!
General association of science-fiction and humour, perhaps? :-)
The run through the lethal fan-blades was pure 'Galaxy Quest' (and all
the original sources for that scene), of course ;-)

> This is Doctor Who reinvigorated and reinvented for a new century and a new
> audience and I hope it runs and runs. I can scarcely contain myself
> thinking that we have at least another twenty five episodes to go!

I felt the timing was much better on this one -- and not such
implausibly large stakes. Saving the Earth from alien invasion in
twenty-five minutes is a bit of a tall order. Saving the majority of the
people on board a space station from industrial sabotage is much more
manageable -- and they didn't have to spend such a large proportion of
the running-time on introducing the characters, either, which helps a
lot. And I only missed one punch-line in this episode ("I'm not
[messing around], I'm fighting back!"), which I was able to ask for at
the time :-)

(Incidentally, is this the first Doctor Who story to date in which the
Doctor *doesn't* save the Earth from destruction? ;-)

>
> I watched it with a tolerant friend who is not an out and out Who fan
> and he said it was totally involving, genuinely exciting and very
> funny. I was on the phone to a couple of other friends who, again,
> like DW but aren't out-and-out nutjobs like us - they both expressed
> surprise at how entertaining and compelling it all was, and said they
> were looking forward to seeing more, in a way that they hadn't since
> they were kids.
>
I was watching it with both hands clenched around each other and
twisting together most of the time. Cassandra's demise was a
gasp-and-ugh moment :-)

Still had to run from the room in an undignified manner (trailing the
blanket I'd been wrapped up in!) to escape the spoilers for the next
episode, though :-(
--
Igenlode <[email protected]> Lurker Extraordinaire

loose (archaic): set free, unleash - lose: mislay, be defeated

g

in reply to Igenlode on 04/04/2005 10:03 PM

05/04/2005 4:19 AM

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
(Igenlode) wrote:

> the 'sun filter' business (that had me
> puzzled; surely a filter is not a threat but a protection?

Yup - so if you lift it, ie take it away, you lose the protection and
you're *that* close to the sun...

> (Incidentally, is this the first Doctor Who story to date in which the
> Doctor *doesn't* save the Earth from destruction? ;-)

He's actually there simultaneously in his first incarnation watching it
from elsewhere in 'The Ark'...

sT

[email protected] (The Bronze)

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

05/04/2005 7:12 AM

> Actually, my reaction at that point was that if only he hadn't wasted
> so much time at the start hesitating and looking back so see if Jabe was
> still all right, she might have been still alive -- not to mention that
> he wouldn't then have had the problem :-(

Ha-ha! Yes, that's true, I was thinking that too. A fault in the
directing of the scene. I wasn't sure how much the pauses and
lingering backward looks were meant to be subjective time or objective
though.

> I'm not quite sure what purpose was served, from a script point of view,
> by having Rose locked away in a room while all the crisis was going on.
> It's not as if she was going to be in any more danger there than when
> the space station blew up, and the 'sun filter' business (that had me
> puzzled; surely a filter is not a threat but a protection?) was all
> over within a few minutes. I was subconsciously expecting her to
> discover something or perform some vital action while she was in there,
> but she was just kept shut out of the way and then released when the
> Doctor had finished. I suppose they needed some logic as to why Rose
> couldn't be available to hold down the switch...

There is that, but also I must admit that events were so gripping at
the time that I only noticed this in retrospect. You can tell this is
still the Doctor Who we know and love because a good, exciting story
can still fall apart when subjected to close scrutiny! It's Pyramids
of Mars all over again...


> If Rose looks after that cutting, will it eventually grow into a
> sentient tree? Or was Jabe's grandfather just much less 'biologically
> advanced' than those of her own generation?

Maybe she'll forget its provenance, plant it back in 21st century
earth, leading to a sooner-than-should-have-been development of the
sentient trees, and a war between them and intolerant humanity? Oops.
The Doctor will take Rose to the Warrior King Tree plead for the human
race's survival, only for him to look at Rose and say - "You called me
a TWIG!"


> I was watching it with both hands clenched around each other and
> twisting together most of the time. Cassandra's demise was a
> gasp-and-ugh moment :-)

That's the spirit!


> Still had to run from the room in an undignified manner (trailing the
> blanket I'd been wrapped up in!) to escape the spoilers for the next
> episode, though :-(

LOL - I too dressed as Alpha Centauri to watch this episode. For The
Unquiet Dead I intend to dress as a giant rat.


The Bronze

Ef

"Emmemm"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 7:45 PM

"Martin Hoscik" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Emmemm wrote:
>
> > OK, so the best explanation to eventually profer is that Cassandra
is an
> > evil person who has mutilated her body numerous times leading her to
be
> > a sick flap of skin after 500 operations. This is clearly what RTD
> > intends to imply about transexualism. No?
>
> No, it's just what you choose to see in someone else's post as you
work
> your way down a list of improbable reasons to bash the new show.

Wrong again, but nice try at a smear.
--
Frankymole
"Sir, I have given you an argument. I am not also obliged to provide you
with an understanding."

DC

Daibhid Ceannaideach

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

04/04/2005 2:59 AM

"Emmemm" <[email protected]> wrote in news:d2q2h8$veu$1
@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk:

> "Martin Hoscik" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Emmemm wrote:
>>
>> > OK, so the best explanation to eventually profer is that Cassandra
> is an
>> > evil person who has mutilated her body numerous times leading her to
> be
>> > a sick flap of skin after 500 operations. This is clearly what RTD
>> > intends to imply about transexualism. No?
>>
>> No, it's just what you choose to see in someone else's post as you
> work
>> your way down a list of improbable reasons to bash the new show.
>
> Wrong again, but nice try at a smear.

Funnily enough, that's almost exactly what I was thinking when reading the
post Martin replied to...

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc/
"Nice to meet you, Rose. Run for your life!"
-The Ninth Doctor

Ef

"Emmemm"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

03/04/2005 7:17 PM

"The Bronze" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> As for 'transexualism' - are you serious? You make this lightweight
> quip from Cassandra sound like RTD has been flaunting she-male porno
> during prime-time!
>
> Is it so terrible anyway for a kid to imagine that in the future we
> might be able to change backwards and forwards between male and
> female? It is, in fact, exactly the sort of notion that would quite
> easily occur to a child spontaneously, regardless of RTD and what you
> seem to regard as his sleazy perverted agenda!

OK, so the best explanation to eventually profer is that Cassandra is an
evil person who has mutilated her body numerous times leading her to be
a sick flap of skin after 500 operations. This is clearly what RTD
intends to imply about transexualism. No?

--
Frankymole
"Sir, I have given you an argument. I am not also obliged to provide you
with an understanding."

sT

[email protected] (The Bronze)

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

04/04/2005 1:28 PM

> Thanks for the thread Bronze. Very much appreciated.

My pleasure, Doctor!

Bb

"Brax"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

06/04/2005 12:26 AM

"The Bronze" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Fantastic! A sure sign of success is when kids start drawing something
> they've seen. I used to fill drawing pad after drawing pad with
> renderings of Davros, Cybermen heads (just the heads for some reason),
> Ice Warriors, and - after the Weetabix figures came out - Quarks,
> hundreds of Quarks... it came as quite a shock to me when I realised
> everyone else thought the Quarks were a crap design!

I used to draw Quarks after i read the book for the first time :o)

I also used to draw countless Tripods, Tie Fighters and Daleks too ;o)

with the occasional Drathro!

Brax

sT

[email protected] (The Bronze)

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

05/04/2005 10:01 PM

> Those Weetabix things made me a big White Robots fan - I thought they
> looked terrifying!

Bring back the White Robots! I love them, from their 'state the
obvious' names to their cute angular noses and psychedelic chest-rays!


I'm glad we can agree on something, eh? eh? What was that? Hmmmm?


The BlackandWhiteEra Bronze

Ef

"Emmemm"

in reply to [email protected] (The Bronze) on 03/04/2005 6:53 AM

04/04/2005 3:25 PM

The Bronze wrote:

> Fantastic! A sure sign of success is when kids start drawing something
> they've seen. I used to fill drawing pad after drawing pad with
> renderings of Davros, Cybermen heads (just the heads for some reason),
> Ice Warriors, and - after the Weetabix figures came out - Quarks,
> hundreds of Quarks... it came as quite a shock to me when I realised
> everyone else thought the Quarks were a crap design!

Those Weetabix things made me a big White Robots fan - I thought they
looked terrifying!
--
Frankymole
"Sir, I have given you an argument. I am not also obliged to provide
you with an understanding."


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